Death Roller

ask yourself this.. if they replaced the death roller with an ogre would you be happy? i think not

If the Ogre came from an Ogre-team you won't hear a peep from me.

sigh you have once again missed the point.. see you want the better ogre... lets try the troll then

so based on that argument trolls, ogres, minos, yetties all SHOULD have access to general skill as they already have the penalty of a 1 in 6 roll per turn to do an action each turn

Brush up on your comprehending skills. Since Death Rollers do Not have normal acces to General Skills I do not think they need a stalling weakness.

OMG i dont see how you dont get it and you ask me to brush up
let me try to dumb it down for you
the death roller AND big guys dont have access to general skills
the death roller has NO 1 d 6 penalty roll
Big guys DO

now u said be ok for the 1d6 penalty if they had access to general skill
my point is big guys have that penalty so should they not also get the general skill like you think DR shoud to have same said penalty?

point i made was that they are handicapped with a 1 in 6 roll the roller is not (you brought them up in the first place i didnt personally see them relevant, and do you need 3 dwarf blockers as a must and a RR for the roller? no... is there a risk a roller will kill your own team? no)

And my point is that Bloodlust is easily circumvented with having enough Thralls and RR.
Heck to make it even more 'unfair', as long as the Thrall isn't KO'd several Vamps can even feed off the same Thrall.

omg please you cant be that stupid the point is that they have a penalty would you be ok with dwarf having blood lust then? no coz its a PENALTY

only so if they are set up in the right position to start with and dont know how they could be affective from there

Simple, a Beast of Nurgle alone can cripple a 1/2ling team if you use him just like a Treeman.

this is crazy.. for one thats only against flings 2. not all in a fling side are fings. 3 dont think all maps you can just set up and not move, and by doing so stop them, 4. Beast is not even in DB and on a BB pitch its too wide so whats it got to do with anything

no not so at all, from other posts i get the feeling you test your dungeons (great dungeons BTW) with elf team as well as human and dwarf... its ok to disagree thats cool... but when you ask that if a penalty on roller is ok only if they get more power then that to me leads to a more 1 eyed view.

What?
For starters I wasn't asking for anything, I simply stated that as long Death Rollers do not have normal acces to General Skills and do not have passive powers like Tentacles they are just fine.

no they are not fine and as for the other points look above (thats up if you didnt know and yes i am starting to wonder about you)

BTW have you even played my on my maps?
This game is called DUNGEONbowl and not INDOORBloodbowl. If the mayority of the DB coaches avoid maps who use doors (which hopefully is possible in the future) simply because they are easily used for bottlenecks then this game should change its name from DB into IndoorBloodBowl.
I remember back in the day when I played the original DB we created real dungeons including the use of doors (normal & secret) not just indoor BB fields.

I dont as yet have the game but i have played 2 games on my mates laptop 1 was on your map and i also played 2 other games to look at the maps buy bailed on the game as i had no more time to play.
The fact that i complemented you on your maps yet you felt the need to be rude first shows to me that 1. your not bright enough to understand a complement or 2 your just rude 3.you have a person interest to be a 1 eyed doorf supporter and so lack the ability to have any real objectivity or all the above
also you keep giving examples of things not in the game of DB (like vamps and beasts) come on no need to confuse yourself any further as you seem so easily confused

they have runners mv 6 ag 3 and blitzers mv 5 ag3 for the ball stuff and as we all know dwarfs just cage roll down the field and with 20 turns 1 score in DB the movement is not really a factor

That is if they have found the ball 1st.
So in order to find the ball speed is a crucial factor.

no not at all you can stall at you end zone and wait to take it off them so moot point

Crazy Jester is totally right.

It's not about balanced it's about FAIR. So if you like to play 95% of your game, dwarves vs dwarves with Death Roller, ok but tell us.

I don't want this. The DB rules was made by Jervis Johnson BEFORE the last edition, by a veteran player.
And in his Rules THERE IS NO Death Roller. See the rules again.

The DB PC games is made by Cyanide AFTER the last edition, by noobs BB players, with no feedback and test. So of course you must adapt the game.

Well that’s not strictly true, that version allowed star players and you could take the roller as a star player so it was possible to have 1 on a team. However in that version of the rules if you knocked a deathroller over then it was auto BH, so a lot less scary prospect.

I do think it is a huge missed opportunity that the dungeonbowl rules have not been updated, at the very least they could have spent a couple of hours changing some of the text in Jervis’s article. As it stands you need to cobble together rules from that article, crp and the handbook to work out which rules apply to the game.

3rd edition Bloodbowl was a massive leap forward from 2nd edition and lots of fun particualiry in 1 off games, but it did have some serious flaws in long term leagues. That is why we have had all the revisions over the years and there are still plenty of complaints that crp does not suit online play. As you can have loads of teams and play hundreds of games in a very short period of time.

The 3rd edition Dungenbowl rules were based on the 3rd edition Bloodbowl rules and really just a quick update to allow you to play the game. Dungeonbowl has never had any real playtesting using 3rd edition so this could be a great opportunity to refine the game. The Deathroller has a massive disadvantage in crp in that it only plays for 1 drive and this it totally removed from dungeonbowl.

sigh you have once again missed the point.. see you want the better ogre... lets try the troll then.

Sure If I can get Gobs or Snots too.

OMG i dont see how you dont get it and you ask me to brush up
let me try to dumb it down for you
the death roller AND big guys dont have access to general skills
the death roller has NO 1 d 6 penalty roll
Big guys DO

And like I've stated already I'm fine that Rollers don't have general skills or no 1d6 penalty.
The thing is that Rollers are secret weapons and the other BG's aren't. I personally consider Rollers a secret weapon but since everyone else already compares them to BGs I was 'forced' to do that too.
And with no 2nd half in DB there is no way Rollers will be sent off the field.

omg please you cant be that stupid the point is that they have a penalty would you be ok with dwarf having blood lust then? no coz its a PENALTY

Like I've stated before Bloodlust can be minimized or circumvented entirely with enough Thralls and RR. The only reason I do not want Dwarves to have Bloodlust is if they can't have Thralls too, or when their average MV is still only 4 or less which simply is too low in combination with Bloodlust.

this is crazy.. for one thats only against flings 2. not all in a fling side are fings. 3 dont think all maps you can just set up and not move, and by doing so stop them, 4. Beast is not even in DB and on a BB pitch its too wide so whats it got to do with anything

The best positioning for Treeman are in corridors blocking the way to the ez.
So when you use Beasts of Nurgle & Minotaurs with Tentacles, Tackle, Tails (and the added bonus of Str5) like that then I'm sure they'll do more than just lock up and cause turn-overs for just 1/2lings.
Even without everything else but Tentacles.

The fact that i complemented you on your maps yet you felt the need to be rude first shows to me that 1. your not bright enough to understand a complement or 2 your just rude 3.you have a person interest to be a 1 eyed doorf supporter and so lack the ability to have any real objectivity or all the above
also you keep giving examples of things not in the game of DB (like vamps and beasts) come on no need to confuse yourself any further as you seem so easily confused

Yes well in my defense I completely missed the fact that you paid me a compliment because you also accused me of asking for Rollers to have acces to General Skills which I never have. Everything else was coloured by that.

no not at all you can stall at you end zone and wait to take it off them so moot point

Only if the oppent is oblivious to the fact that he is the only 1 who is opening all the chests while the Dwarves are turteling in their ez.
Even Dwarves can't score without a ball or any player near the opponent's ez.

I do think it is a huge missed opportunity that the dungeonbowl rules have not been updated, at the very least they could have spent a couple of hours changing some of the text in Jervis’s article. As it stands you need to cobble together rules from that article, crp and the handbook to work out which rules apply to the game.

I would like to think that the huge opportunity to update the dungeon bowl rules still exists. To update the rules in a sensible manner we need to see how the game plays - and what better way of doing this than building up a database of games between real opponents in the online game. Modifying the rules to make DB as balanced and workable as CRP will take more than a few hours of discussion; so I can see why Cyanide haven't done this yet. Hopefully they will take on board discussions of the rules on these boards and make corrections (as well as bug fixes) as they go along. This may also involve changing the team rosters, as it was stated before release that they took a liberal approach to the positional limits (by not having any), but may review this decision later based on feedback from us.

One also has to wonder how the Heath Robinson rules we have implemented now will dovetail with the DB boxset rumoured for September... if it *is* released there will surely be a balanced CRP compliant ruleset to go with it. And yes it is just a rumour. A lovely, droolsome rumour

[Rogue]

And like I've stated already I'm fine that Rollers don't have general skills or no 1d6 penalty.
The thing is that Rollers are secret weapons and the other BG's aren't. I personally consider Rollers a secret weapon but since everyone else already compares them to BGs I was 'forced' to do that too.
And with no 2nd half in DB there is no way Rollers will be sent off the field.

This is exactly the shortcoming that is being argued.

Big Guys - D6 roll for every action in some format (Bone Head, Take Root, Wild Animal)
Roller - nothing, move at will with no risk, including 2+ dodges using break tackle

Now in BB the roller's lack of a D6 penalty is offset by the Secret Weapon ability that means the roller's time on pitch is normally short-lived, plus the width of the pitch makes it avoidable. In DB there is no halves, no implementation of the Secret Weapon rule at all and narrow corridors that restrict movement. The elimination of the Secret Weapon penalty now makes the roller over powered compared to the other big guys that are available.

Only if the oppent is oblivious to the fact that he is the only 1 who is opening all the chests while the Dwarves are turteling in their ez.
Even Dwarves can't score without a ball or any player near the opponent's ez.

Dwarves don't need to score. So long as they have more players on the pitch, they turtle in a convenient location, send the roller out to further reduce opposition numbers, and wait for the Turn 25 warp-out to grant them the win with double MVP, double winnings. Try to do that with a Treeman.

Dwarves don't need to score. So long as they have more players on the pitch, they turtle in a convenient location, send the roller out to further reduce opposition numbers, and wait for the Turn 25 warp-out to grant them the win with double MVP, double winnings. Try to do that with a Treeman.

Has anyone done this yet? I'm dubious that it's a workable tactic. There are, admittedly, maps which encourage the less adventurous dwarf coaches amongst us to play defensively and sit out the game - but these maps are equally less conducive to deathrollers going out on killing sprees, as that would require teleporting the roller, and even if it doesn't get lost in time and space this makes it difficult for the dwarf player to support the deathroller. Deathrollers are strong, but without support they can still be taken down reasonably easily. I frequently make 2-die uphill blocks against big guys using players with block, and will even risk the occasional 3-die uphill block if I've done everything else that I need to that turn. And with fouling being a complete free for all at the moment no player wandering around by themselves are safe - not even deathrollers.

Big Guys - D6 roll for every action in some format (Bone Head, Take Root, Wild Animal)
Roller - nothing, move at will with no risk, including 2+ dodges using break tackle

Now in BB the roller's lack of a D6 penalty is offset by the Secret Weapon ability that means the roller's time on pitch is normally short-lived, plus the width of the pitch makes it avoidable. In DB there is no halves, no implementation of the Secret Weapon rule at all and narrow corridors that restrict movement. The elimination of the Secret Weapon penalty now makes the roller over powered compared to the other big guys that are available.

Yes well, if I'm not mistaken the Roller is the only secret weapon that has Loner? I mean the Goblin Fanatic does not suffer from Loner, right? Yet the Goblin Fanatic has STR7 just like the Roller. You want to give him the BG D6 weakness to even when he is not a BG but a secret weapon like the Roller? And as I've already posted I consider the Roller a (secret) weapon and not a BG.
Now if the Roller did not suffer from Loner, then by all means give him the Stall weakness or whatever you want to call it.

The fact that the Roller has no normal access to General Skills, is a loner and does not possess any passive powers like Tentacles makes him fine as is.
Geez, the only thing you need to do to immobelize a Roller is have the guts to attack him with a Blocker who has Dauntless, instead of complaining about imbalance or trying to limit STR5 characters to just 2 per team.

Dwarves don't need to score. So long as they have more players on the pitch, they turtle in a convenient location, send the roller out to further reduce opposition numbers, and wait for the Turn 25 warp-out to grant them the win with double MVP, double winnings. Try to do that with a Treeman.

True but any player who's MV is greater than that of the Dwarves (which is nearly everyone else) should have no problem staying out of harms way.

Who knew a drunk Dwarf, an old English lawnroller and an engine....could casue such fervant debate lol

Yes well, if I'm not mistaken the Roller is the only secret weapon that has Loner?

yes but as secret weapon has no use in DB its a moot point... also all big guys (not counting BB fling team or ogre team they have penalty of rest team very weak) have loner

I mean the Goblin Fanatic does not suffer from Loner, right?

true but he suffers from random movement (something you left out to help make a one sided argument look better)

Yet the Goblin Fanatic has STR7 just like the Roller. You want to give him the BG D6 weakness to even when he is not a BG but a secret weapon like the Roller? And as I've already posted I consider the Roller a (secret) weapon and not a BG.

well if he was to get the D6 then would it also not be fair to give the roller the random movement
then they would have the same amount of penalty's
Goblin Fanatic penalty 1 random movement
Death roller penalty um...er... 0

Now if the Roller did not suffer from Loner, then by all means give him the Stall weakness or whatever you want to call it.

But as almost all big guys have loner AND the D6 why should the roller be any diferent... (though i wouldn't mind if the DR lost loner to get the D6 tbh)
but in saying that i would like the D6 to act like really stupid (like on trolls) roll 1to 3 on D6 it stalls unless another player (mechanic) is next to the roller then its 1 on a D6 .... (even though trolls still have loner as well)

The fact that the Roller has no normal access to General Skills, is a loner and does not possess any passive powers like Tentacles makes him fine as is.

well No big guy OR secret weapon has normal access to general skill so moot point
as for Tentacles.. only the beast starts with that and is not even in DB and also has loner AND really stupid dont forget the roller has LOT of other skills Break tackle, juggernaut, stand firm (dirty player... a GENERAL skill)... the best has not got them

Geez, the only thing you need to do to immobelize a Roller is have the guts to attack him with a Blocker who has Dauntless, instead of complaining about imbalance or trying to limit STR5 characters to just 2 per team.

I dont want to see a limit of 2 str 5 per team... most teams get the option to have more that 2 (including the dwarfs with a roller) and i think that is ok... getting to have the option of more big guys but with the risk of (use of D6) doing nothing on any given turn vs the risk of no big guys but always on the move is for me one of the best parts of the game

Dwarves don't need to score. So long as they have more players on the pitch, they turtle in a convenient location, send the roller out to further reduce opposition numbers, and wait for the Turn 25 warp-out to grant them the win with double MVP, double winnings. Try to do that with a Treeman.

True but any player who's MV is greater than that of the Dwarves (which is nearly everyone else) should have no problem staying out of harms way.

its not that hard to corner a player or 2 with a dwarf team or do nothing and let them take injury's from exploding chest and then as their numbers are down (will lose on turn 25) will be forced to come to dwarfs to try to score at which point the dwarf do the ground en pound
and like rogue says flings (even with human help) cant back up a treeman like dwarfs can with their roller in a ground en pound