Deathroller & Big Guys

The difficulty is when you apply a unifying rule to try and include everything that would be seen as a “big guy” so you can limit them.

I agree. The only reason I dragged base size into the discussion is to illustrate that BG is not a synonym for having ST5. And since GW decreed that even BGs can enter a 1sq wide corridor the size of the figure's base has become moot.
So imo a figure is a BG when he starts with at least the following 4 characteristics:
A) he must have at least ST5
B) must have Loner in conjuction with being Wild, Really Stupid or any other negative trait
C) must have no normal access to General Skills
D) be of gigantic proportions (read: must have a bigger base than normal)
And once a figure starts with these 4 requirments and is classified a BG he stays a BG even when he loses ST or gains access to General Skills.

Since I've never played Chaos Dwarves I have no idea if my assumption that a Bull Centaur does not have ST5 is right, so imo would not be a BG. Although he has a bigger base but lacks ST5 (and doesn't have Loner) he is not a BG, just like a Dwarf can have ST5 yet not be the size of a giant.

If you make it loner then you exclude halfing trees and ogre team ogres. It’s fine that these players lose loner on their own teams as they suck but can be unfair if it allows a team to have 4 big guys.

Well there is no question about Human Ogres being BGs right?
So if ya ask me we should go back to the original rule of restricting each team to 2 Loners with the addition that each team can only have 3 BGs. This way an Ogre coach can field 2 versions of the Ogre.
I mean if you still believe that the DR is OP make him count as 2 BGs. So a Dwarf coach can only field the DR with 1 other BG. While if I'm not mistaken a Chaos coach can field a Minotaur, 2 Human Ogres and 4 ST5 Chaos warriors?

So much easier when the "big guys" had the Big Guy skill (always disagreed with it's removal).
Though that wouldn't have addressed the DR.

I can think of many easy ways to fix the problem, but then I wouldn't involve GW, so I wouldn't have to deal with their stupidity and paranoia over rule changes and IP issues.

As my other post was deleted for whatever reason (overly critical of the game publisher? I didn't think it was, really), I would like to repeat that spubbbba's idea of completely rewriting the rosters is the best one, but perhaps not overly realistic.

The difficulty is when you apply a unifying rule to try and include everything that would be seen as a “big guy” so you can limit them.

I agree. The only reason I dragged base size into the discussion is to illustrate that BG is not a synonym for having ST5. And since GW decreed that even BGs can enter a 1sq wide corridor the size of the figure's base has become moot.
So imo a figure is a BG when he starts with at least the following 4 characteristics:
A) he must have at least ST5
B) must have Loner in conjuction with being Wild, Really Stupid or any other negative trait
C) must have no normal access to General Skills
D) be of gigantic proportions (read: must have a bigger base than normal)
And once a figure starts with these 4 requirments and is classified a BG he stays a BG even when he loses ST or gains access to General Skills.

Why would you include a condition that you realize no longer exists? Also, Tomb Guardians would be included in your definition, was that the intent? I agree that they probably should be, in mixed race teams.

I mean if you still believe that the DR is OP make him count as 2 BGs. So a Dwarf coach can only field the DR with 1 other BG. While if I'm not mistaken a Chaos coach can field a Minotaur, 2 Human Ogres and 4 ST5 Chaos warriors?

Or you could, you know, only allow "Big Guys" from one of the three contributing teams. So the DR would have to stand alone and Grey would be slightly less ridiculous in terms of strength.

spubbbba's idea of completely rewriting the rosters is the best one

Hell yeah !!!

Why would you include a condition that you realize no longer exists? ?

Simply because it is called Big Guy for a reason and not Strong Guy.
So if a Bull Centaur does not have ST5 he is not a BG even when he has a bigger base, a Fanatic would not be a BG even when he has ST7 nor would Mummies or Tomb Guardians be considered BGs.

The fact that you have Human Ogres or 1/2ling Treemen that do not suffer from Loner is a whole seperate issue, because they are BG even when they lack Loner.

Or you could, you know, only allow "Big Guys" from one of the three contributing teams. So the DR would have to stand alone and Grey would be slightly less ridiculous in terms of strength.

Wait don't tell me that you wanna nerf the number of all ST5 characters per team instead of just the BGs?
In that case lets drop the charade and admit that you only want 2 STR5 players per team so being a BG has nothing to do with it.

My point was that you admit there is no such thing as base size anymore (or rather that all players have the same base size, essentially the same thing), so why include it as one of your conditions? It just distracts from your argument.

Wait don't tell me that you wanna nerf the number of all ST5 characters per team instead of just the BGs?
In that case lets drop the charade and admit that you only want 2 STR5 players per team so being a BG has nothing to do with it.

Well, not exactly. Jade could potentially have three ST5+ players, whereas Light or Bright might only have one if they chose the Deathroller. I don't understand how anyone can feel that having varied big guys is an essential part of Dungeon Bowl, seeing as how neither of the (previous) official versions allowed it.

My point was that you admit there is no such thing as base size anymore (or rather that all players have the same base size, essentially the same thing), so why include it as one of your conditions? It just distracts from your argument.

No it doesn't, it illustrates perfectly why it is called Big Guy and not Strong Guy.
The fact that GW made the base size moot is no reason not to differentiate between a ST5 figure and a BG; BG means that besides being big the figure also needs to be at least ST5, have Loner in conjuction with being Wild, really Stupid or any other negative trait and have no normal access to General Skills.
The Bull Centaur, although he has a large base, would not be a BG since he doesn't have ST5, has normal access to General Skills and does not suffer from Loner & being Wild or Really Stupid.
So because the Bull Centaur does not meet the 4 requirments he is not a BG, just like the Fanatic, Mummy and Tomb Guard.

Well, not exactly. Jade could potentially have three ST5+ players, whereas Light or Bright might only have one if they chose the Deathroller. I don't understand how anyone can feel that having varied big guys is an essential part of Dungeon Bowl, seeing as how neither of the (previous) official versions allowed it.

Simply because I'm dead set against the oversimplification of classifying anything that starts with ST5 as a BG.
Instead of limiting each team to starting with only 2 BGs Cyanide should have given those teams who only have access to 1 BG more acess to STR5 BGs or ST5+ secret weapons.

I'm of the opinion that a Goblin coach should be able to start with 2 Trolls and a Fanatic.
The same goes for an Undead coach who should be able to start with 2 Mummies and another BG (or 2) since Mummies aren't BGs themselves.
Or a Chaos Dwarven coach who should be able to start with 2 Bull Centaurs and 2 other (Loner) BGs.
Except in this case I'm of the opinion that a Chaos Dwarven coach should not be able to get the DR; the DR should only be available for 'normal' Dwarf teams only.

But in order to have so many BGs in a team, either the last man standing rule should be eliminated or nimble players should have access to a skill which grants automatic rerolls for precarious position so trying to score should become 'easier'.
Or when nobody scores a TD a tie shoud then be possible instead of porting players out after turn 16.
Otherwise playing bashy is just too heavily favoured in the current rules of DB which means that the BGs should indeed be limited.

But WHY do you feel that the game needs so many strong players to be entertaining? Especially when it creates other issues, which you then have to counter with extra rules?

As I've noted several times now, at no point in its history did DungeonBowl allow teams with several types of big guys on one team*. I believe that even bull centaurs were still classified as Star Players when the last version came out.

(*actually, I guess the Dark College was the one exception, if you count Mummies as big guys)