Death Roller

yes but as secret weapon has no use in DB its a moot point... also all big guys (not counting BB fling team or ogre team they have penalty of rest team very weak) have loner.

Last time I checked a Dwarf is not a BG and a Roller is still a weapon not a BG. Lets agree that the Roller is a Big Secret Weapon, which is probably why he is the only secret weapon who also suffers from the Loner penalty.

true but he suffers from random movement (something you left out to help make a one sided argument look better)

And you keep forgetting that no other secret weapon has the Loner penalty to make your 1 sided argument look better.
I'd choose random movement over Loner any time. I consider Loner in combination with no Block to be far worse than random movement.
At least the Fanatic can waltz over already downed players without causing a turn-over, which I just realised is kinda moot in DB since fouling here is risk free. But even then I'd still regard Loner & no Block as being far worse.

well if he was to get the D6 then would it also not be fair to give the roller the random movement then they would have the same amount of penalty's
Goblin Fanatic penalty 1 random movement
Death roller penalty um...er... 0

LoL Goblin Fanatic no Loner penalty, Death Roller um...er...1.
I know, I know, you keep insisting that a Roller is a BG, but then a Goblin Fanatic with STR7 should also be considered a BG instead of a secret weapon. Or at the very least his B & C is a gigantic weapon for the thiny Gob to wield.

But as almost all big guys have loner AND the D6 why should the roller be any diferent... (though i wouldn't mind if the DR lost loner to get the D6 tbh) but in saying that i would like the D6 to act like really stupid (like on trolls) roll 1to 3 on D6 it stalls unless another player (mechanic) is next to the roller then its 1 on a D6 .... (even though trolls still have loner as well)

Yeah , yeah you keep insiting that a Troller is a BG while I disagree, he is just a big secret weapon, hence the addition of the Loner penalty.
But I'm fine if he loses the Loner penalty and gains the random movement instead.

well No big guy OR secret weapon has normal access to general skill so moot point
as for Tentacles.. only the beast starts with that and is not even in DB and also has loner AND really stupid dont forget the roller has LOT of other skills Break tackle, juggernaut, stand firm (dirty player... a GENERAL skill)... the best has not got them

Yet the Beast can get them if he rolls doubles and can pick General Skills or whatever other category the skill is in, while a Roller cannot get Mutations. So the Roller has a bigger disadvantage than the Beast or Minotaur.

I dont want to see a limit of 2 str 5 per team... most teams get the option to have more that 2 (including the dwarfs with a roller) and i think that is ok... getting to have the option of more big guys but with the risk of (use of D6) doing nothing on any given turn vs the risk of no big guys but always on the move is for me one of the best parts of the game

I know but the op did.

Its not that hard to corner a player or 2 with a dwarf team or do nothing and let them take injury's from exploding chest and then as their numbers are down (will lose on turn 25) will be forced to come to dwarfs to try to score at which point the dwarf do the ground en pound
and like rogue says flings (even with human help) cant back up a treeman like dwarfs can with their roller in a ground en pound

You really think it is easy for AV8-10 Dwarfs to be killed or lethally injured by exploding chests?
FYI no one is forced to come to Dwarves, there is always the option to loose without suffering multiple death or permanent injuries. We've been over this in the topic Sportmanship & throwing the match.

You are conveniently forgetting that the fanatic is a squishy goblin and if he gets knocked over he is automatically knocked out at minimum. Random movement is a huge drawback in a game with pit traps and the like. Plus dauntless gets less reliable the greater the strength disparity and without juggernaut you can’t move the roller and even if you do knock it over the chances of injuring it are low.

Also arguing that the roller is a secret weapon is silly since that rule has no impact in Dungeonbowl. When looking at price and balance you should be comparing it to the players that it has the most in common with. As it has high strength and armour, low agility, loner and strength access only on normal rolls in Dungeonbowl it bears the most in common with blocker type big guys.

The best comparison would be with Kroxigors, Ogres from the human team, Trolls and the Beast of Nurgle.

The Ogre is the closest, so for 20K extra you lose AG and MA, plus the ability to TTM, but gain 2ST, AV, no bonehead and several good skills. I’d say that was an absolute bargain and does not even factor in the Roller’s greater effectiveness in a dungeon.

You are conveniently forgetting that the fanatic is a squishy goblin and if he gets knocked over he is automatically knocked out at minimum. Random movement is a huge drawback in a game with pit traps and the like. Plus dauntless gets less reliable the greater the strength disparity and without juggernaut you can’t move the roller and even if you do knock it over the chances of injuring it are low.

Also arguing that the roller is a secret weapon is silly since that rule has no impact in Dungeonbowl. When looking at price and balance you should be comparing it to the players that it has the most in common with. As it has high strength and armour, low agility, loner and strength access only on normal rolls in Dungeonbowl it bears the most in common with blocker type big guys.

The best comparison would be with Kroxigors, Ogres from the human team, Trolls and the Beast of Nurgle.

The Ogre is the closest, so for 20K extra you lose AG and MA, plus the ability to TTM, but gain 2ST, AV, no bonehead and several good skills. I’d say that was an absolute bargain and does not even factor in the Roller’s greater effectiveness in a dungeon.

+1
well said

You are conveniently forgetting that the fanatic is a squishy goblin and if he gets knocked over he is automatically knocked out at minimum.

No I haven't forgotten that, all I'm saying is that a Roller is a weapon and not a BG. The trade-of for the Fanatic having STR7 and being squishy compared to the Roller having High STR & high AV with Loner is fair.
I'd rather have a squishy Roller and STR7 with no Loner than have high STR & AV Roller with Loner.
So that is why I think it is fair for the Roller to be a secret weapon but also has Loner.
And another thing what a Roller and Fanatic both have in common is that they have no hands which I also consider a huge drawback. Not being able to score a TD in DB is a huge drawback since there're no drives, which should make it very easy for a Roller to score a TD in DB.

Random movement is a huge drawback in a game with pit traps and the like.

Yes well than we have to disagree on the fact that I prefer random movement without Loner over not having block but having a high AV with Loner.

Plus dauntless gets less reliable the greater the strength disparity and without juggernaut you can’t move the roller and even if you do knock it over the chances of injuring it are low.

So? I don't need to destroy or injure a Roller to score a TD, I just need a teammate to incapacitate him.

Also arguing that the roller is a secret weapon is silly since that rule has no impact in Dungeonbowl.

Really? That is saying that all females are male since that is irrelevant in DB.
I consider a BG to be a living (or at least a conscious) being/animated corpse, or whatever. So I would classify a Dwarf Golem (a 'giant' robots the size of a large Human; I don't know if they exist in Warharmmer) indeed a BG but not a Roller since it still is operated by a Dwarf. And in my book Dwarves ain't stupid, nor are their mechanical constructs as faulty as that of Gobs.

When looking at price and balance you should be comparing it to the players that it has the most in common with. As it has high strength and armour, low agility, loner and strength access only on normal rolls in Dungeonbowl it bears the most in common with blocker type big guys.

Well the problem then is what is a Blocker type BG? Either one is a blocker or a BG. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no BG starts with block.

The Ogre is the closest, so for 20K extra you lose AG and MA, plus the ability to TTM, but gain 2ST, AV, no bonehead and several good skills. I’d say that was an absolute bargain and does not even factor in the Roller’s greater effectiveness in a dungeon.

Yeah okay, let's make a trade; give the roller the BG weakness, but in return he loses the No hand weakness. I mean no matter how low a Dwarf's Ag is putting the ball in his glove box is no special feat.
That seems fair to me.
And to be honest I don't care about the several good skills he has, he still doesn't have Block yet does have Loner.

And if you want a balanced game then go play chess, checkers or Go where everyone has the exact same pieces.

The secret weapon skill has has no impact in Dungeonbowl so your comparison is spurious in that context. Whilst they both have high strength and no hands the fanatic’s random movement rules, ability to ignore tackle zones and getting auto injured when knocked over are too unique to make a worthwhile comparison. The 4th edition roller would have been closer as it ignored tackle zones and was auto BH’d if knocked over.
Have cyanide even addressed what happens in the fanatic goes into a wall?
Big guys on the other hand come with loner (bar on fling treemen and the ogre team) have high strength and low agility. I don’t see many people using Trolls, Beasts of Nurgle or Kroxigors as ball carriers so you are overstating the disadvantage of no hands on an AG1 loner. That is far more likely to go wrong than a 3D block without the block skill.
I don’t think fluff should dictate the rules, only add extra flavour as much of it is open to interpretation. Also the Bloodbowl fluff has been rather schizophrenic over the years as to how much it borrows from the warhammer world, which itself has changed much over the last 25+ years. It has been stated by Galak that they are completely different. However Dwarf chainsaws and bombs are just as likely to go wrong as goblin ones and the Dwarf Warhammer’s fluff is littered with examples of their weapons spectacularly misfiring.

I don’t think many coaches would choose to lose no hands if it meant gaining bonehead or worse really stupid. It might be a reasonable change to the roller as giving it the ball would be risky and it would still be vulnerable to strip ball.

The lack of block is less of a handicap as it gets 3D blocks against ST3. Plus a key strength it that it is much harder to get assists against or avoid in Dungeonbowl.

Balance is important if you want to have a game with longevity. That is the difficulty with Dungeonbowl as it has never been fully playtested. However a game like rock/paper/scissors is balanced but few want to play a game where the results is already determined so that needs to be avoided too. Bloodbowl has both diversity and longevity so that is something to aim for.

The rules shouldn’t rigidly follow normal BB as the games are very different so I’m all for changing the teams or individual players if it will make the game more enjoyable.

Big guys on the other hand come with loner (bar on fling treemen and the ogre team) have high strength and low agility. I don’t see many people using Trolls, Beasts of Nurgle or Kroxigors as ball carriers so you are overstating the disadvantage of no hands on an AG1 loner. That is far more likely to go wrong than a 3D block without the block skill.

True, but it is not uncommen for my Roller to end up in my opponent's ez. Not as the ballcarrier but as the 1 assisting the ballcarier. Heck the 1st time that happened in DB I had thrown the ball to my Troller because he was in the ez, but had completely forgotten that he had no hands to catch it.
And at other times he was in the ez but could not even attempt to pick up the ball to score a TD.

I don’t think many coaches would choose to lose no hands if it meant gaining bonehead or worse really stupid. It might be a reasonable change to the roller as giving it the ball would be risky and it would still be vulnerable to strip ball.

It seems that I've forgot to mention to lose Loner too in order to get the Bg weakness.

The lack of block is less of a handicap as it gets 3D blocks against ST3. Plus a key strength it that it is much harder to get assists against or avoid in Dungeonbowl.

The way I play I'm often fighting more than 1 opponent. I often have to use reroll which often fails. That is why I believe the Roller doesn't need to change.

Balance is important if you want to have a game with longevity.

I agree but I believe that the Roller is fine as is. I guess petetioning for a limitation of 2 STR5 players per team or trying to ban the Roller to Starplayer status just rubs me the wrong way.

The rules shouldn’t rigidly follow normal BB as the games are very different so I’m all for changing the teams or individual players if it will make the game more enjoyable.

Okay, in that case if the Roller is neither a secret weapon or a true BG lets just leave him as is.

Also arguing that the roller is a secret weapon is silly since that rule has no impact in Dungeonbowl.

Really? That is saying that all females are male since that is irrelevant in DB.
I consider a BG to be a living (or at least a conscious) being/animated corpse, or whatever. So I would classify a Dwarf Golem (a 'giant' robots the size of a large Human; I don't know if they exist in Warharmmer) indeed a BG but not a Roller since it still is operated by a Dwarf. And in my book Dwarves ain't stupid, nor are their mechanical constructs as faulty as that of Gobs.

what can one say to this sort of logic

When looking at price and balance you should be comparing it to the players that it has the most in common with. As it has high strength and armour, low agility, loner and strength access only on normal rolls in Dungeonbowl it bears the most in common with blocker type big guys.

Well the problem then is what is a Blocker type BG? Either one is a blocker or a BG. And correct me if I'm wrong, but no BG starts with block.

again i sit shaking my head he used the words blocker TYPE not he is a blocker
NO big guy has block and once again you fail to see the point made

The Ogre is the closest, so for 20K extra you lose AG and MA, plus the ability to TTM, but gain 2ST, AV, no bonehead and several good skills. I’d say that was an absolute bargain and does not even factor in the Roller’s greater effectiveness in a dungeon.

Yeah okay, let's make a trade; give the roller the BG weakness, but in return he loses the No hand weakness. I mean no matter how low a Dwarf's Ag is putting the ball in his glove box is no special feat.
That seems fair to me.

well i for 1 would love that trade off... gets hands but also gets bone head would make the roller even with most BG's

I don’t think many coaches would choose to lose no hands if it meant gaining bonehead or worse really stupid. It might be a reasonable change to the roller as giving it the ball would be risky and it would still be vulnerable to strip ball.

It seems that I've forgot to mention to lose Loner too in order to get the Bg weakness.

and just like that you need more to make it unfair.... er ok den me fink dat ALL big guyz need ta ave str 9 and 5 agi den too just wake up

And to be honest I don't care about the several good skills he has, he still doesn't have Block yet does have Loner.

yes just like all the big guys (not counting fling trees)

And if you want a balanced game then go play chess, checkers or Go where everyone has the exact same pieces.

well we may end up with just that, all just playing dwarfs with rollers (exact same pieces) coz rollers are BS and OP for DB
have the balls to play a non dwarf with roller team and see how you fair (just kidding i am sure you do play other teams... as only a tool would just play the one team and enter a debate like this)


and with that i give up

or do I?

well we may end up with just that, all just playing dwarfs with rollers (exact same pieces) coz rollers are BS and OP for DB

Oh plz, quit being such a drama queen.
Once pple can also play Orcs I'm sure they will field 4 Black Orcs, 4 Orc Blitzers and 2 Trolls.
Once the Black Orcs gain 1st lvl and take Block a Roller isn't even a threat anymore
Or what about fielding 2 Werewolves who already start with Claws 1st take Block and Dauntless as their 2nd skill?

But I'm sure there'll be coaches who'll moan & b*tch because 1 team can field so many Blockers, of which the Black Orcs,if they're lucky, can easily get STR5.

have the balls to play a non dwarf with roller team and see how you fair (just kidding i am sure you do play other teams... as only a tool would just play the one team and enter a debate like this)

Yes well at least I'm not a tool who moans about my opponent having a Roller or who forfaits a game because the map has a door or 1 sq opening which easily can be used to bottleneck.
I mean giving up at the 1st sign of hardship, or simply because the odds have turned against you, or because your opponent has a stronger player (or because you have just lost your strongest player) is against the spirit of DB or sport in general.

Or what about fielding 2 Werewolves who already start with Claws 1st take Block and Dauntless as their 2nd skill?

Then we'll start getting threads about how claw/MB/PO is even *more* OP in DB