Death Roller

DB rules are quite stupid and the game is quite disappointing. Adopting BB rules and players to dungeon chase is ridiculous and I think it was a kind of dead end of BB evolution (almost forgotten till now). Of course this is not a Cyanide fault.

Anyway, the game could be funny and can be played sometimes, when we have no time or mood for classic BB. But the presence of mighty, overpowered, st7, ass-kicking, break-tackling, standing-firm tank makes, that playing this game is really pointless. With all respect, people defending deathroller presence, this must be really blind. And please spare me arguments, that it can be countered by dauntless player / leap player or outmaneuvered. The truth is, that the only effective way to counter it is to have one on our side. Really exciting...

For me, DB in present form is pure waste of time and money. I regret I bought it

I personally find Dungeonbowl far more entertaining than standard BB. Standard BB games with rookie teams are almost as dependent on luck as DB games, whereas experienced teams are pretty much forced to take the very same skill combinations to stay competitive. It's just dull. Besides, most BB teams are only good within specific TV ranges. It never fails to amuse when folks say that such a setup is "balanced".

DB adds a basic element of tactical boardgames that is missing in standard BB: terrain. Now, the game's biggest strength can easily turn into a weakness. Dungeons such as "Prison" or "Catacomb II" that come with the game are clear cases of poor design, with narrow bottlenecks that are either really tedious to break through or can become effectively impregnable for an agility team facing bashy defenders.

I agree that the Deathroller should be heavily nerfed. If it were removed from the game I wouldn't shed a tear either. But the biggest issue are the poorly designed dungeons. A Treeman is almost as bad as a Deathroller when you absolutely have to get through a long, three-squares wide passageway to score.

Anyway, I love Dungeonbowl. Standard BB is a game for thirty-somethings who have "grown up with the game" and have turned it over the years into something as po-faced as themselves

[Jolly Roger]

We are aware of the Death Roller problem. In a future update, we are going to reintroduce the arbitrator in the dungeons. So the Death Roller might be kick out when he assaults a player on the floor. This should redress the balance.

In the board game, the secret weapons are ejected in turn used if you roll a 1 on the die, they must change this now

Hearing that the referee is about to be re-introduced is good. Gosh knows he's needed to avoid mindless, risk-free fouling (which I've been indulging with mindless abandon myself...). But the Deathroller remains far too effective nonetheless. It's both the strongest "big guy", and the only one without a nega-trait like "bonehead" or "wild animal"! Some very good suggestions have been made in this thread to address the issue, there's no need to repeat them.

Would any alteration of the rules (such as a hypothetical "nerf" of the Deathroller) require Games Workshop's approval?

At any rate, and at the distinct risk of sounding like a broken record, more and better (i.e. more open) maps would help, too.

Please, please think twice before making such a balance change Roger - thinking it will simply redress balance. it will not. it is far more complicated than that. one on the only ways to remove a deathroller is fouling it. also, bringing back being sent off on fouls will simply mean, that people will start blocking narrow corridors by not standing players up. free fouling like now is fine. the deathroller not, it needs something like suggested engine stall. 2+ to take action. i would add, that after a stall it takes a 4+ to get engine running again. then we will be about there.

ask veteran BB coaches before making changes
The problem with the deathroller is surely not when he fouls players. it is with a piece being undercosted, in an environment that is perfect for him, as secret weapon has no impact in DB. his cost should be doubled (ok that might be over the top, but that is closer to bringing back balance)

i am very much against being sent off on fouls. corridors will be blocked by downed players. also a victim of a foul, KO or BH first many turns can rejoin the game. being sent off would make fouling redundant and destroy dungeonbowl. the impact would be immense

in short; if you do what you hint, you will break a lot more than you fix
believe me. it is extremely important that you get things done right in the initial baby-time of the game
otherwise it will never grow strong and get a solid following

No offence, but claims to authority are a bit iffy in a niche pastime like BB and its derivatives where pretty much everybody and their dog can claim to be an "experienced player"

The idea of making an action like fouling entirely, completely risk-free strikes me as simply inane. You want to get rid of a Deathroller by fouling, or de-pitch a guy that's blocking a passageway? Well, evaluate risk and reward and decide whether you're going to stick that boot in or not accordingly. The way things are now, I've seen (and been guilty of!) some serious b*llsh*t like fouling Treemen.

Of course, and this must be ...oh... like the fourth time I mention this in a row, getting bodies out of the way in a narrow passageway becomes less critical when the action does not revolve around a single narrow passageway. Maps with bottlenecks are rubbish and should be corrected. Advocating risk-free fouling to deal with bad dungeons is expecting the two proverbial wrongs to add up to a right.

Please, please think twice before making such a balance change Roger - thinking it will simply redress balance. it will not. it is far more complicated than that. one on the only ways to remove a deathroller is fouling it. also, bringing back being sent off on fouls will simply mean, that people will start blocking narrow corridors by not standing players up. free fouling like now is fine. the deathroller not, it needs something like suggested engine stall. 2+ to take action. i would add, that after a stall it takes a 4+ to get engine running again. then we will be about there.

ask veteran BB coaches before making changes

i am very much against being sent off on fouls. corridors will be blocked by downed players. also a victim of a foul, KO or BH first many turns can rejoin the game. being sent off would make fouling redundant and destroy dungeonbowl. the impact would be immense

This is a bit too dramatic. I've played far more games of DB with NO fouls than I have with tons of fouls. I did foul 3 times in my last match, but it was against an elf player sending WD's and Elf Catchers into 4 of my players. Having a 3-4 assist foul against the only elf in range of the ball is a solid play imo and I will do it when the rules are implemented properly as well. Using your ST 4 AG 4 dwarven blitzer to foul a player with no assists ..... There needs to be a *potential* drawback to fouling. (Also, Good Luck fouling a DR off the pitch with your 1/12 to even break armor while the rest of his team takes unmitigated fouls on your elves at just under 50% success breaking your armor. BTW, how did you get the DR on the ground to foul him in the first place? 3D uphill Block? He failed a 3D block? Start adding up the odds of putting the DR on the ground, rolling an 11 or 12 to break armor, and then actually getting an injury so he doesn't come back in 2 turns. Fouling the DR to deal with it sounds great and all, but I have about as good a shot winning a thousand bucks in the Powerball as this strategy does in succeeding.)

As for the DR, fouling with it is not the issue. Saying that dauntless is an answer is laughable. Dauntless will fail more often than not and then you also need to have juggernaught or it will just stand firm in a narrow hallway. I think Cyanide is a bit too hung up on the DR fouling and is not really looking at it's true impact on the game. I have yet to play against a DR that fouled me. It's a waste of a turn for him to foul. He can just go crush another player or shutdown a hallway while any other player fouls your guy. (Yes, I know he gets a bonus, but when there are no consequences, you just keep trying so the bonus doesn't mean as much.) Against a good coach, they can pretty much give you next to 0 chance at winning on a closed in map.

My best/only strategy for the DR thus far is to lure it into blocking and hope that Precarious Position kicks in. Sure it's 1/6, but that's better odds than pretty much anything else an elf can throw at him.

The reason i ask for experienced BB players to be heard is, that from Rogers post it seems obvious to me, that he does not understand what the problem with the deathroller is (or at least tries to sidestep it consciously). I have played more than 2.000 BB games, so I do consider myself experienced.

In BB the risk/reward involved in fouling makes it more often than not a bad thing to do. In DB, with narrow corridors aplenty (some of us actually find them fun) being able to have a downed player blocking a bottleneck, where the fouler is much more likely to leave the pitch than his victim, is a bad idea. A very very bad idea. Removing AV 9 players would also be very veryhard. DB Is faster, more ferocious and treacherous than BB. players can reenter the pitch - a sent off fouler can not.you need to be able to clear corridors. leave fouling as it is. address the real problem with the deathroller, that his price is calculated from being meant to only play half a game.

Detox

Surely you can assist with both blocking and fouling, right? I was able to whenever i played the game. Your strawmen called you, they asked if you are still looking for your common sense.

But fine, i don't really want to discuss it. There are 2 different opinions on this. But don't come in here crying after they introduce being sent off. Because i will tell you, that I said so.