Deathroller & Big Guys

5 BGs per team, 4 BGs per team, or even 3 BGs per team; let's at least agree that we should go back to the original rule of 2 Loners per team. This way we can have more than just 2 ST5 BGs per team.

Tricky : I hope that we can agree that Cyanide should've published all the different colleges 1st before trying to balance the game.

I disagree. They knew the 10 rosters from the start, I know them and you know them. So the sooner they correct their errors, the better it is.

Tricky : 5 BGs per team, 4 BGs per team, or even 3 BGs per team; let's at least agree that we should go back to the original rule of 2 Loners per team. This way we can have more than just 2 ST5 BGs per team.

No and you are wrong : do the maths, some team can't have 3 BG.
The "2 looner rule" is unfair and is a non sens. No logic under it. Better removing the limitation that having this rule.

Cyanide correct the original error with the "5-STR rule", to be in adequation with the spirit of limiting big guys. It's not perfect but better that the "2-looner rule".

Yes you can make some team with 2-3-4-5-6 Big Guys, I'm not against it, I wish I can play a Troll team for exemple. But first you have to be logic, you have to make some playtest and redo all the rosters like Sppubbaa said from zero. Cyanide will never do this. ( GW etc...).

I'm with Evilstein on this - best thing to do at the moment would be to remove all the big guy limitations, seeing as there's no limitations (other than those in the BB team lists) on the other positionals. Once all the teams are out then balance can be looked at properly (maybe include the big guys into the "blocker" category, or create a new "big guy" category for them).

I disagree. They knew the 10 rosters from the start, I know them and you know them. So the sooner they correct their errors, the better it is.

No I do not know them, because Cyanide can make changes.

So I'll only know them once they are actually out.

No and you are wrong : do the maths, some team can't have 3 BG.
The "2 looner rule" is unfair and is a non sens. No logic under it. Better removing the limitation that having this rule.

What exactly is your your problem with BGs?

a) that some BGs don't have Loner?
b)that some teams only have 2 BGs?
c) that it is not logical wich figure is a BG and which is not?
d) all the above?

The simple logic of the Loner rule is that BGs, Mummies, Tomb Guards, Bull Centaurs etc are not positionals, they are a race.

FYI some teams can't have a AG4+ player, isn't that unfair too?
Why keep focusing blindly on BGs?
Heck, in BB the Elven teams can't start with BGs because they are specialised in speed and passing. So granting them BGs would imbalance the game.
I guess that in DB you could give the Dark Elves acces to Ogres and the rest of the Elves access to Treemen but that won't really solve the problem either because then the Elves also have access to AG4 players who have access to Jump etc.
But I guess you would only notice that the Elves can only acces 2 BGs, right?
Limiting every team to just 2 ST5 BGs is unfair; the Jade College can't field the usual 2 Trolls & Fanatic and they don't have access to AG4 players with AG skills.

I might be wrong (since I don't have the DLC) but I assume that right now the Fanatic suffers from the BG limitation because of his ST7, but he'll also suffer from the new Secret Weapon rule.
If this is indeed the case why field the Fanatic at all? The cost far outweighs any possible gain.

Cyanide correct the original error with the "5-STR rule", to be in adequation with the spirit of limiting big guys. It's not perfect but better that the "2-looner rule".

Uhm, no this does not solve anything with deciding whether a Mummy or Fanatic is a BG or not.

Yes you can make some team with 2-3-4-5-6 Big Guys, I'm not against it, I wish I can play a Troll team for exemple. But first you have to be logic, you have to make some playtest and redo all the rosters like Sppubbaa said from zero. Cyanide will never do this. ( GW etc...).

Yes from zero with all teams published.
Trying to balance a game without having access to all the colleges (thus every player) to playtest them is illogical.

[Warfish]

Just to interject one point. As it stands now, the goblin fanatic will count as a BG/5 str. By extention it looks like mummies and guardians will as well when/if they are interduced. But keep the conversation going, you guys are coming up with good ideas and suggestions.

Just to interject one point. As it stands now, the goblin fanatic will count as a BG/5 str. By extention it looks like mummies and guardians will as well when/if they are interduced. But keep the conversation going, you guys are coming up with good ideas and suggestions.

If the Jade College won't get access to non-Loner Trolls I fear that DB can only be unbalanced.
I mean they have no access to AG4+ players with AG skills, right?

[Warfish]

To be honest it seems to me that would shouldn't be tring to balance teams until they are all out. Things change every time a new race comes out because this adds a new mix of varibles. IMO even if we balance the 5 races perfectly as soon as new races are added it has the potenial to ater the balance. good piont about fast teams having 4 + agi with leap. Big GUys help conter that.

IMO even if we balance the 5 races perfectly as soon as new races are added it has the potenial to ater the balance.

LoL, I can only agree since I've been sayin' that all along.

good piont about fast teams having 4 + agi with leap. Big GUys help conter that.

The difference between BB and DB is that in BB you can either specialise in speed & passing, bashing or be a hybrid.
The fact that BB doesn't end after scoring a TD means that you'll at least get possession of the ball in order to score, while in DB you either find the ball or steal it from your opponent.
This means that in DB it would be foolish to be anything but be a hybrid. If you specialise in being bashy you'll probably be too slow to steal the ball and if you only specialise in speed & passing stealing the ball might be problematic since you might not be bashy enough.
So unlike in BB the apriori DB team should be a hybrid team in order to balance the game, which I fear means that all the DB teams will look alike.
The only diffeence will be that AG teams like the Elves will have less BGs than say the Gobs or Chaos. But I think that the Elves need a BG or 2 (read: ST skill access) to become more bashy in order to steal the ball or counter the other BGs.
Especially in the beginning of the team's career.

Tricky : No I do not know them, because Cyanide can make changes.
So I'll only know them once they are actually out.

I announce the Troll race before it was release, 27 June :
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=504#p2240

:?: What exactly is your your problem with BGs?

I have no problem. I had problem with the "2 looner rule".

The simple logic of the Loner rule is that BGs, Mummies, Tomb Guards, Bull Centaurs etc are not positionals, they are a race.

You are wrong, I will not tell you what is a race and what is a positional in real life. The denomination is just for gaming purpose, for your information all players are used to be positionals, they can be a "special" (see the PDF Rule of Dungeon Bowl). I'm not interesting in what is a Big Guy but how many mummies you will allow in the Dark team for exemple.

Dark Team as it is plane : 0-16 Undeads- 0-6 Dark Elves- 0-2 Trolls

0-2 Mumies Or Trolls + Some deads + 0-6 AG4 (with the STR 5 Rule)
or
2 Mumies + 2 Trolls + 0-6 AG 4 + Some deads (no limitation rule)

Note : Troll have to be replaced by Gob in my opinion.

You see homeworks are possible...now, you can do it for the 10 Colleges.

I don’t think we need to balance all the 10 team perfectly, after all normal BB has tiers so I’d be fine with that, just make sure the tier 3 teams are at least fun. With the ST5 rule the Jade College are worse than if you could just pick from a normal Orc team.

The old make up of the 10 teams was known so it seems a little silly to not have decided this beforehand. That way we could have discussed balance knowing all the facts, as any rule implemented now will impact other teams.

I do think teams should have themes though, in normal BB the only teams that allow more than 1 big guy are tier 3 teams and Chaos Pact. So if your primary race is goblins or halfings then 4 (non-deathroller) big guys is fine by me. But if teams are meant to be roughly equal then having jade with primary goblins restricted to 2 big guys whilst grey with chaos as primary having 4 (2 of them non-loner ogres) is not great.

Removing the positional restrictions was a bad idea too, for instance the amber college (dark elf primary, orc secondary and skaven tertiary if memory serves) could have 10 blitzers on their roster. Equally I don’t think dark elves suit allying with skaven and orcs very well.

Also we have to be careful if changing the Secret Weapon rule as if you use that to nerf the deathroller then it also impacts the goblin weapons. I don’t see the fanatic, chainsaw or bomber needing to be toned down as they all have massive drawbacks at present (kickback, fumbled bombs and random movement).